Brussels Airlines Avro RJ100 flaps problems

[Stij]

@ Tolipanebas

Can we rent one and try this out? It should be amasing!

Cheers,

Stij

[tolipanebas]

@ Tolipanebas

Can we rent one and try this out? It should be amasing!

Cheers,

Stij

Can you spare the money to replace all of the carbon brake disks after you've played with it?

if you're interested in knowing more about the use and advantages of carbon brakes on airplanes, then here's an in-depth and yet easy to understand article from Boeing on them offering it as an option to some of their medium haul airplanes too now, after having it used only on their widebodies like the 747 or 777.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeroma ... _05_1.html

[Desert Rat]

@ Desert Rat,


But when do you use Max Brake then?



Stij

Take off...never during landing

[earthman]

When landing on an aircraft carrier?

[Stij]

Take off...never during landing

I see, as in:

Max Brake
Full throttle
Release brakes
Off you go!

Thanks for the clarification!

Cheers,

Stij

[Desert Rat]

Actually Desert Rat, without wanting to get involved in your personal conflict with Polaris, he is right:

Of course he is right, I'm just a bullshitter Capt....

[earthman]

I suppose all the extra braking power is there to be able to use very heavy braking without damaging/overheating the brakes?

[tolipanebas]

@ Desert Rat,
But when do you use Max Brake then?
Stij

Take off...never during landing

On the 737 or A32F indeed, but on the AVRO RJ, it is occasionally used during landing too, for instance on a snow-contaminated RWY.

Remember the plane has no reversers and needs to compensate this somehow, so it's not entirely operated like any other jet you may know...

anyway, all this is getting completely off-topic!

[B.Inventive]

Just a small addition/correction here guys.
1. carbon brakes don't brake HARDER, they brake more effeciently. Meaning they can absorb alot more energy than conventional brakes.
2. the Avro has these brakes because it needs to be able to start braking at higher than usual ground speeds, and is not assisted in energy absorption by means of reverse thrust.
3. if you slam the brake pedals to max braking you will get the exact same amount of deceleration as the convetional brakes.
however
4. if you continue braking, the conventional brakes will heat up rapidly losing alot of their efficiency therefore braking power. Carbon brakes absorb more energy thus last longer.

Also, we have anti skid devices, maximum braking will always be a result of what anti skid calculates as the maximum deceleration rate possible for the given conditions (it senses) this is equal in all types of aircraft equipped with a decent anti skid system.
the reason Ferrari's and other sports cars have Carbon brakes is because of massive weight savings and increased durability in the braking power.
(wouldn't be super if your brakes start fading in lap 10 of a 50 lap race now would it...)

Tolipanebas: max braking on a snow contaminated runway is again the result of what anti skid determines the maximum possible deceleration rate. Usually anti skid will only allow 'gentle' braking on snow covered runways, from my experience anyhow... If you turned off the anti skid you'd have to apply very gently braking to make sure the tires don't skid and lose all grip(even sideways = dangerous on snow!!)
You're right in stating the carbon brakes compensate for a lack of reverse, but it's just not because they would 'brake harder' ... it's all about energy...
Cheerz

[Desert Rat]

Take off...never during landing

I see, as in:

Max Brake
Full throttle
Release brakes
Off you go!

Thanks for the clarification!

Cheers,

Stij

Not really

Max brake is selected before Take-off, in case the crew has to reject the TO before V1.

[sn_rj85]

GO LUCHTZAK

Wait until they discover more news from our website regarding FR,SN replacements,...

Just hope that they don't pick up all gossip, speculations and assumptions that are published on this forum daily. Press is already full of completely wrong information about aviation.

[FlightMate]

Hi b.inventive,

Indeed, and if I'm not mistaken, the Bae146-200 has got steel brakes, not carbon like the RJ's, and achieves the same landing performances. (thus certified for London City)

[regi]

Hi b.inventive,

Indeed, and if I'm not mistaken, the Bae146-200 has got steel brakes, not carbon like the RJ's, and achieves the same landing performances. (thus certified for London City)

steel brakes or iron? May sound a bit strange question, but we see iron to be used (sometimes with specific compounds) because it is better self lubricating by the carbon and sulphur content. Iron does have better vibration demping as well.
For example: most brake discs of trains ( and cars, trucks ) are in cast iron, also some high speed trains.
nice explanation for members interested in technique: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disc_brake

[sdbelgium]

And a special message for the guys at HLN:


Incident: Brussels Airlines RJ1H at Brussels on Nov 19th 2010, flaps problem

A Brussels Airlines Avro RJ-100, registration OO-DWI performing flight SN-3140 from Florence (Italy) to Brussels (Belgium), was already established on the localizer when the crew aborted the approach to Brussels' runway 25L reporting flaps problems and entered a holding northeast of the airport for about 25 minutes. The airplane subsequently commenced the approach to runway 25R for a safe landing at a higher than normal speed.

[Snoopy]

Hi b.inventive,

Indeed, and if I'm not mistaken, the Bae146-200 has got steel brakes, not carbon like the RJ's, and achieves the same landing performances. (thus certified for London City)

The Bae-146 and the Avro-RJ are equipped with the same carbon brakes system

[jdw]

Hi b.inventive,

Indeed, and if I'm not mistaken, the Bae146-200 has got steel brakes, not carbon like the RJ's, and achieves the same landing performances. (thus certified for London City)

The Bae-146 and the Avro-RJ are equipped with the same carbon brakes system

The Bae-146 can be equipt with steel brakes, it's up to the operator. If you select steel brakes the only thing witch changes are the tyres with fuses to deflate the tyre at a temp of 150°C instead of the 199°C with carbon brakes.

[RoMax]

http://avherald.com/h?article=433b50a8

""Incident: Brussels Airlines RJ1H at Brussels on Nov 19th 2010, flaps problem

A Brussels Airlines Avro RJ-100, registration OO-DWI performing flight SN-3140 from Florence (Italy) to Brussels (Belgium), was already established on the localizer when the crew aborted the approach to Brussels' runway 25L reporting flaps problems and entered a holding northeast of the airport for about 25 minutes. The airplane subsequently commenced the approach to runway 25R for a safe landing at a higher than normal speed.""

And one reaction on the article:

""By Jonh on Sunday, Nov 21st 2010 18:03Z

today similar accident happened for the flight from Brussels to Vilnius. The plane had an emergency landing in Warsav. Good maintenance of Brussels airlines ""

Are we going to see this the whole winter?

[jdw]

Flap problems are not usual to the Bae146 or avro except for the flap computer on the Bae so for me this is a case of bad maintenance.
5 times with 2 planes?

[sn26567]

today similar accident happened for the flight from Brussels to Vilnius. The plane had an emergency landing in Warsaw.

Report of Aviation Herald:

Incident: Brussels Airlines RJ1H at Vilnius on Nov 21st 2010, flaps problem

A Brussels Airlines Avro RJ-100, registration OO-DWI performing flight SN-2371 from Brussels (Belgium) to Vilnius (Lithuania), was on approach to Vilnius runway 20, not yet established on final approach, when the crew aborted the approach. While doing the first racetrack in a holding at 5000 feet the crew decided to divert to Warsaw (runway length 3690 meters/12100 feet vs. Vilnius 2515 meters/8250 feet) about 215nm southwest of Vilnius and climbed to FL240. On approach to Warsaw's runway 33 the crew requested a final of 15nm and requested to intercept the glidepath at 4000 feet. The crew landed safely on Warsaw's runway 33 at a higher than normal speed about 60 minutes after aborting the approach to Vilnius.

The airplane had encountered a similiar problem on Nov 19th and had been on the ground during the rest of Nov 19th and all day of Nov 20th, see: Incident: Brussels Airlines RJ1H at Brussels on Nov 19th 2010, flaps problem.

Most passengers were rebooked on a LOT flight from Warsaw to Vilnius and others had to take a connecting flight through Copenhagen.

[b.lufthansa]

5th flaps case with 2 aircraft (OO-DWD OO-DWI) in a short period, confirm ?

No comment from Brussels Airlines ??