Austrian Airlines considers South American flights

[quixoticguide]

yes, to Salvador de Bahia the most African city in South America.

[b720]

SN must fly to GRU, HKG, and DXB plus an eve. Flight to JFK.

[cnc]

SN must fly to GRU, HKG, and DXB plus an eve. Flight to JFK.

yes and if possible in brand new A380's

[RoMax]

SN must fly to GRU, HKG, and DXB plus an eve. Flight to JFK.

yes and if possible in brand new A380's

Seriously, Dubai????
GRU ok (but I don't see them doing it in 2014-2015, probably not even 2016). HKG...there could be a market, but I don't see SN serving it. No need for SN to serve HKG in the LH Group story, unless the other members run out of traffic rights (if that applies to HKG?).

[Flanker2]

If OS can do it, why not SN which has a larger home market?

Depending on ther destination you'll need a lot of aircraft for such routes. If you take Sao Paulo as an example, you'll need at least 1.5 aircraft (fortunately SN has a midday long haul departure) unless you don't intend to fly to it daily (in which case you won't attract many business passengers).

If you look : every day, about 6-7 flights of Iberia are leaving BRU to Madrid. On each flight, about more than 50% of the pax have connections flights to South America.

As far as I know IB only has 4 flights, 2 of which connect to its Latin American flights (the early morning departure and the evening flight) and two which connect from its Latin American flights (the midday and the early evening arrival). Second, what's the yield? UX has entered this market as well and the competition is fierce (you can drive to CDG and take AF or JJ connect at FRA, AMS or LHR). Moreover arguably the highest yield is on the red eyes, but that would mean higher costs. The daylight westbound option (probably the only vaible option for SN) is very effecient but usually lower yields.

I know the financial problems with SN, but is it not possible to start a 5 weekly flight to Rio for example ?

I don't understand why SN is not starting such kind of flight.

Does LH want SN do to Latin America and compete with them? IB is IAGs Latin America carrier (though the number of flights ex LHR are growing) and I doubt that LH needs many of its airlines flying to South America (at present LH and LX take care for this market). Moreover, Star already has TP serving many destinations in Latin America (which BTW doesn't have a good schedule ex Vienna). In the end, flying to South America is very expensive and there is already a lot of competition. Finally, Brazil in not so booming anymore. Though still growing, you'll see that the number of passengers aren't growing as much as it used to be. However, with JJ retiring 10 A332s soon and already dropping GIG-FRA and GIG-CDG (though upgauging GRU-CDG to 2 daily 77Ws) there may be some room.

The opportunity window is closing indeed for SN.
About the 1.5 day problem, I can see a solution for that but it's out of SN's reach due to complexity. SN can only do very simple things.

The solution I have in mind is a cross between 5th freedom flights like SQ does them, and Cargo B used to work between Africa and South America. Basically, you replace 1 daily DKR flight by 2 or 3 daily flights to South American destinations with a stop in DKR. You spread your pax of that 1 daily DKR flight onto those 2 or 3 flights. This way you can also haul some high premium traffic between South America and Africa through the hub in DKR, and still fill the seats emptied by the pax that only tag along between DKR-BRU.

By doing this, you have no waste and you can fly daily with max utilisation. Basically a return will be a 40 hours operation, which you can do daily with 2 aircraft, of which one you can take from the daily DKR rotations.

Austria is not well-located for South AM, SN has a much better position.

BUT IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN

[crlhub]

Brazilian immigrants or expats almost all use TP or IB to fly back to their home country,at least once a year.But it is a very low yield market.About belgian tourists and business class,no idea without checking the BSP.I just know that Solvay has a big factory down there and some expats.A few Brazilian banks in LUX,but we do not have BRULUX anymore to feed SN,it would be interesting to reinstate such a flight as there are almost no long hauls departing from LUX and a very rich market.And two Brazilian multinational companies have their European headquarters in Brussels(but not many employees).Beside that,just the Ambassy,consulate and Brazilian rep to the UE.And that is about all.I do not know if this would be enough to generate enough traffic.Bruair is 100% unknown in Sout America.There is for sure no daily traffic possible before a very good (and expensive)marketing campaign to let the local public discover the brand.Rio is pure Leisure/vfr market with little business,but the proud city will hold the 2014 Soccer world cup and the 2016 Summer Olympics and paralympics as well of course.They have this summer the JMJ(visit of The Pope)for a youth convention like...and the Soccer confederation Cup will be played next june.A fantastic buzz from 2014 to 2016 for the Rio destination,even if SAO remains THE business capital by far and the main competitive market but no tourism at all.Salvador,Recife and Fortaleza are large beach cities in the North Northeast(AZ has just opended Fortaleza).Lot of charters from Italy and Germany to REC and SSA.Buenos aires forget it,the country is once again entering a deep depression.AF just opened Montevideo and Santiago has some belgian links but not enough to be connected to BRU.
As far as I remember we also had in the past PZ to Paraguay with one or two stops at REC or SSA...but a long,long time ago,before Vasp and Sabena to GRU.(1980's)
The SN flight to GRU did not do well for several reasons:SN brand very poor to say the least,only two flights a week,MD11 aircraft,and Brazil was still a third world country at that very time,in a very bad economic situation.The new middle class only emerged during the Lula years.1 out of two Brazilian are now able to fly overseas.Which is a good 100 millions pax potential.The country has a big potential,but is slowing down a bit for the moment with high inflation and less buying power.But this country is also home a tiny minority of incredibly rich people(mainly in SAO,and in the three southern states+a bit in Rio).Violence is unfortunatly still a daily problem,eventhough the Police is 'cleaning'or trying at least,the favelas before the big events to come.
I do not see SN flying to Brazil before quiet some time.It is too late for the world cup and the Summer games.
They should have take such a 'go ahead' two years ago,but we all know it was impossible and not a priority.
HKG is a better bet,same for Japan or South Africa or why not Mexico city or Montréal(all former sabena stations).

The Brazilian low cost 'GOL' is restructuring his network and cutting costs.They clearly are in troubles.
Two other Brazilian low costs closed their doors or merged recently.
But one good news,Avianca Brazil is expanding.
Some even talk about the possibility of the Varig Brand(owned by Gol Group)to be used again only for the long haul on a full service complement of GOL.They would fly to one or two European stations,but mostly firts to the USA.

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-201 ... 05487.html


http://www.panrotas.com.br/

[kiwiandrew]

The opportunity window is closing indeed for SN.
About the 1.5 day problem, I can see a solution for that but it's out of SN's reach due to complexity. SN can only do very simple things.

The solution I have in mind is a cross between 5th freedom flights like SQ does them, and Cargo B used to work between Africa and South America. Basically, you replace 1 daily DKR flight by 2 or 3 daily flights to South American destinations with a stop in DKR. You spread your pax of that 1 daily DKR flight onto those 2 or 3 flights. This way you can also haul some high premium traffic between South America and Africa through the hub in DKR, and still fill the seats emptied by the pax that only tag along between DKR-BRU.

By doing this, you have no waste and you can fly daily with max utilisation. Basically a return will be a 40 hours operation, which you can do daily with 2 aircraft, of which one you can take from the daily DKR rotations.

Austria is not well-located for South AM, SN has a much better position.

BUT IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN

I am curious what makes you think that the notoriously protectionist Senegalese authorities will just decide to generously offer SN fifth freedom rights beyond DKR with nothing offered in return ?

[Flanker2]

More feeding for Senegal Airlines.

[OO-ITR]

The solution I have in mind is a cross between 5th freedom flights like SQ does them, and Cargo B used to work between Africa and South America. Basically, you replace 1 daily DKR flight by 2 or 3 daily flights to South American destinations with a stop in DKR. You spread your pax of that 1 daily DKR flight onto those 2 or 3 flights. This way you can also haul some high premium traffic between South America and Africa through the hub in DKR, and still fill the seats emptied by the pax that only tag along between DKR-BRU.

By doing this, you have no waste and you can fly daily with max utilisation. Basically a return will be a 40 hours operation, which you can do daily with 2 aircraft, of which one you can take from the daily DKR rotations.

Austria is not well-located for South AM, SN has a much better position.

BUT IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN

Instead oF DKR why not LAD and then they can increase the flights BRU-LAD

[cathay belgium]

Hi,

Kind of strange.. looking for new south american flights for SN when there were big troubles last week because an a330 went tech...
Guess this shows south america will have to wait a few more years,.. maybe the opportunity is gone by then,but with no planes that can fly these...
Besides older a330 getting in,....
In a near future this fleet has to be replaced also...like the avros..

Better offer extra flight to JFK, open up LAS,BOS.. and put them on united flights to south america..
Or on LH birds offcourse..
A three time daily dash to from LUX will help the whole network.. indeed...
And try to eat a bit out of AMS also.. that daily F70 of KL says to me it can work both ways haha..

CXB

[RoMax]

And try to eat a bit out of AMS also.. that daily F70 of KL says to me it can work both ways haha..

With a widebody fleet (and related intercontinental network) consisting out of 16 A330's (both versions), 22 747's (normal and combi), 22 777's + 3 on order and 6 MD-11's, about 13(?) daily Delta-flights, numerous codeshare flights to Asia,... I think you have your reason why they are able to fill 4 daily F70's (while a lot of pax come to AMS with their own transport of by train...tough that's bit of a problem recently).

It's very difficult for SN or BRU to eat out of AMS (the South of the Netherlands yes, but more to the north...), AMS has a huge network and numerous frequencies (flexibility), AMS is a nice airport and recently chosen again as the best European airport by Skytrax (3rd worldwide). So, they shouldn't fly to AMS, not at all, but they should work with a train operator to get some Dutch cities (AMS is not even a must for me, RTM and The Hague are already nice, besides some 'smaller' cities) connected directly with the airport.

[LJ]

A three time daily dash to from LUX will help the whole network.. indeed...
And try to eat a bit out of AMS also.. that daily F70 of KL says to me it can work both ways haha..

And make more losses on their European flights?

Instead oF DKR why not LAD and then they can increase the flights BRU-LAD

I reckon you're sarcastic as no way SN will get more traffic rights (and certainly not between LAD and GRU).

just know that Solvay has a big factory down there and some expats.A few Brazilian banks in LUX,but we do not have BRULUX anymore to feed SN,it would be interesting to reinstate such a flight as there are almost no long hauls departing from LUX and a very rich market.And two Brazilian multinational companies have their European headquarters in Brussels(but not many employees).Beside that,just the Ambassy,consulate and Brazilian rep to the UE.And that is about all.

It seems that you're forgetting the largest of them all, AB InBev is still a American - Belgian - Brazilian company and AFAIK their HQ is still located in Belgium. However, you need more than that to start a new service.

Rio is pure Leisure/vfr market with little business

You've probably missed the boom in Rio lately? Yes, still much less than Sao Paulo (as all the finance and consulting firms are based there) but there no longer a pure leisure / VFR destination anymore.

[RoMax]

It seems that you're forgetting the largest of them all, AB InBev is still a American - Belgian - Brazilian company and AFAIK their HQ is still located in Belgium. However, you need more than that to start a new service.

Embraer often indicated (during economic missions) that they would like to work more with Belgian companies (they already do and are happy with their business in Belgium, that's why they would like to increase their 'footprint' overhere), but only with a non-stop connection between Brasil and Belgium (BRU).
And they are not the only one, numerous Brasil-Belgian companies work together or would want to work together. It's not just some big ones like Solvay and AB Inbev, there are many small ones as well.

[sean1982]

And make more losses on their European flights?

In order to profitable on the long haul, you need to fill your planes by feeding into them. Almost all majoer carriers are losing money on their European flights due to strong competition, but it's keeping their profits high on the long haul.

[cnc]

And make more losses on their European flights?

In order to profitable on the long haul, you need to fill your planes by feeding into them. Almost all majoer carriers are losing money on their European flights due to strong competition, but it's keeping their profits high on the long haul.

most long haul routes are far from high profit routes so its a bit more tricky to balance them out

[RoMax]

In order to profitable on the long haul, you need to fill your planes by feeding into them. Almost all majoer carriers are losing money on their European flights due to strong competition, but it's keeping their profits high on the long haul.

Still no reason for SN to fly BRU-AMS. As I said, SN/BRU should focus on the south of the Netherlands and key cities like Rotterdam and The Hague with train connections straight to the airport.

[sean1982]

nono, not AMS. I think what cathay said for a 3 daily dash to LUX would make sense.

[RoMax]

nono, not AMS. I think what cathay said for a 3 daily dash to LUX would make sense.

That's a difference of course (but as in that quote of cathay, both AMS and LUX were mentioned, it was difficult to determine if you were talking about LUX, AMS or both).

Don't know about LUX, I have the feeling 3 daily Dash 8 (so about 230 seats one way) is way too much and less than 3 daily doesn't make sense. LCY may be even a better choice (even with CityJet around the corner in ANR).

[OO-ITR]

Instead oF DKR why not LAD and then they can increase the flights BRU-LAD

I reckon you're sarcastic as no way SN will get more traffic rights (and certainly not between LAD and GRU).

No it was not meant in a sarcastic way but I made the same reflection as you after posting. And I'm not sure if TAAG (codeshare partner for SN) is already flying the LAD-GRU route)

[RoMax]

No it was not meant in a sarcastic way but I made the same reflection as you after posting. And I'm not sure if TAAG (codeshare partner for SN) is already flying the LAD-GRU route)

TAAG operates 3 weekly to Rio and 4 weekly to Sao Paulo (in total it's a daily flight to Brasil, they don't operate Rio and GRU on the same days). Combination of 77W and 777-200ER.
So it seems you are not the only one to see the potential in Angola-Brasil and you can be sure Angola will not allow SN to compete with TAAG. If the market is to grow, it's TAAG that will take it (they have more widebodies on order).