The tyre may have hit something else when it came off. It's rather explosive when that happens and seeing as how it was the inboard, it may have hit the doors or something else.
This is why you never stand next to a wheel, always fwd or aft.
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The tyre may have hit something else when it came off. It's rather explosive when that happens and seeing as how it was the inboard, it may have hit the doors or something else.
This situation did not happend in flight but during turnaround at the airport. No air conditioning in flight would mean no pressurisation, everything was working fine in flight.
These things do happen indeed, BUT, why board passengers when you have a 2 hour slot? Just delay boarding to minimise the discomfort. Why take an aircraft without an APU to Madrid, an airport where ground delays are common , during a heatwave is another question which should be asked to the person in the front left seat.crew1990 wrote: ↑04 Aug 2023, 00:27 From what I heard today, this was a double factor, APU not working but the aircraft was supposed to be connected to the Pre-Conditioned Air (PCA) systems of Madrid Airport wich wasn't working neither. This is what we call bad luck, hopefully there will be some learning from this incident.
When having a slot we still board the PAX because as from the moment that the door are closed, a "ready message" is sent to ATC, aircraft can then leave earlier than foreseen if an opportunity arrises wich happend most of the time. I do understand the PAX frustration, as crew, we have this same one, we are onboard too, unfortunately this is how aviation work.
SN has contract with airport to use PCA, so leaving to MAD without APU was not an issue, but unfortunately, when the aircraft arrived at the stand, the PCA of the airport was not working.
This is not to save money, this is due to technical factor, I will let a pilot or engineer answer on that as I'm don't have the technical knowledge to answer properly to it. But this is not about saving money.
This is how aviation works with an operative air conditioning system! Slots do come forward, but not always, taking the risk with an inoperative APU is not justified and the captain was very lucky non of the passengers got heat related health issues.crew1990 wrote: ↑04 Aug 2023, 13:24 When having a slot we still board the PAX because as from the moment that the door are closed, a "ready message" is sent to ATC, aircraft can then leave earlier than foreseen if an opportunity arrises wich happend most of the time. I do understand the PAX frustration, as crew, we have this same one, we are onboard too, unfortunately this is how aviation work.
It always takes a while before the system is connected and it’s disconnected a while before startup, combined with the time needed to start an engine with an airstarter would have created very uncomfortable conditions in the cabin anyhow. A captain should know that and take it into consideration before operating an aircraft with a defect.
I do have the technical knowledge and there is no such “technical factor”! Some airports do have noise regulations which limits the APU use, but only when ground airconditioning is provided. During boarding, not only at SN, I often see cockpit windows open because it’s too hot, passengers don’t have windows to open so instead of opening a window pilots should start the APU. Another cost saving annd uncomfortable procedure is switching off the airconditioning packs for take off.
I cannot agree more… since around 2014 cockpit crews have been instructed to turn the APU on when the pushback clearance is being given… at the earliest (MH sector, not LH). This in order to save money. Pilots not complying can face an « interview » with the fleet manger sooner than later. And this not withstanding the station you’re flying to/from. The famous « da moet niks kosten » dearly held by SN management for years… the rest of the communication washing (APU inop, GPU not available…) is pure « excuses » bs of the internal com dpt. Period.fcw wrote: ↑04 Aug 2023, 09:48These things do happen indeed, BUT, why board passengers when you have a 2 hour slot? Just delay boarding to minimise the discomfort. Why take an aircraft without an APU to Madrid, an airport where ground delays are common , during a heatwave is another question which should be asked to the person in the front left seat.crew1990 wrote: ↑04 Aug 2023, 00:27 From what I heard today, this was a double factor, APU not working but the aircraft was supposed to be connected to the Pre-Conditioned Air (PCA) systems of Madrid Airport wich wasn't working neither. This is what we call bad luck, hopefully there will be some learning from this incident.
In general I noted SN is delaying the use of air conditioning on board to save money, even during COVID where it was an EASA recommendation to maximise the ventilation on board.
When the pushback clearance is given, you have to be ready for pushback.Darjeeling wrote: ↑04 Aug 2023, 21:57
I cannot agree more… since around 2014 cockpit crews have been instructed to turn the APU on when the pushback clearance is being given… at the earliest (MH sector, not LH). This in order to save money. Pilots not complying can face an « interview » with the fleet manger sooner than later. And this not withstanding the station you’re flying to/from. The famous « da moet niks kosten » dearly held by SN management for years… the rest of the communication washing (APU inop, GPU not available…) is pure « excuses » bs of the internal com dpt. Period.
Right. So if the APU fails outstation, just leave the aircraft there. Period.
True, but in that case a simple call from the flight planning department to CFMU (central flight management unit of Eurocontrol) explaining the exceptional circumstances would, almost certainly, have solved the problem.Lux_avi wrote: ↑05 Aug 2023, 10:16 slots move around all the time. You never know what's going to happen with those CTOT's. Sadly enough, you could be having a good CTOT with a minor delay and end up waiting for an hour for no apparent reason. Who knows here if their 2 hour slot was known before boarding?
Everybody here supposes the captain knew they had a CTOT 2 hours after STD. Who ever said it was the case?fcw wrote: ↑05 Aug 2023, 11:19
True, but in that case a simple call from the flight planning department to CFMU (central flight management unit of Eurocontrol) explaining the exceptional circumstances would, almost certainly, have solved the problem.
External circumstances didn’t help, but his flight has been badly managed by the airline and the pilot in command, from the beginning till the end, full stop!
The least they can do is apologise to the passengers and offer them some compensation, eg an upgrade or discount voucher for a future flight.
Either they knew and shouldn’t have boarded either they missed the slot and got a new one two hours later. I am absolutely sure if flight planning calls CFMU and explains an aircraft, without an APU, just missed the slot by a couple of minutes and now has to wait two hours with 45 degrees inside, which is a health and safety issue, the slot would have been cancelled. Been there, done that more than once!Lux_avi wrote: ↑05 Aug 2023, 14:01
Everybody here supposes the captain knew they had a CTOT 2 hours after STD. Who ever said it was the case?
Perhaps they hat a CTOT on time, missed it (Spanish ATC is also reckless in their traffic management, it is even worse since TSAT, TOBT & co) and got a much worse CTOT that either never improved or got even worse.
Lots of suppositions here but very few facts. Nobody can tell the captain fucked up without having all the information.
Should SN have sent another aircraft to MAD? Hell yes, but was that even possible...? Probably not.
Should airports take extra care of their equipment? YES ! How often do you arrive at a gate and get told the GPU and/or air conditioning do not work?
Should CFMU improve? YES ! It is a total mess, you NEVER know what's going to happen to your CTOT. Ready to go, ready message sent, and despite all that you can get your CTOT being pushed back all the time. Exceptional circumstances? Really? APU INOP? Why would they care at all...
Ok, so why didn't they receive any improvement then...?fcw wrote: ↑05 Aug 2023, 15:00
Either they knew and shouldn’t have boarded either they missed the slot and got a new one two hours later. I am absolutely sure if flight planning calls CFMU and explains an aircraft, without an APU, just missed the slot by a couple of minutes and now has to wait two hours with 45 degrees inside, which is a health and safety issue, the slot would have been cancelled. Been there, done that more than once!
Taking the aircraft to Madrid should, as yous said, never have happened and there it’s the pilot in command who had the final authority. Putting the aircraft on a less challenging route should have been possible, but there again you need resources and experience, unfortunately both are a bit lacking after SN forced many experienced employees into retirement three years ago.