Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

[RTM]

Lets not forget where SN is coming from... The list of airlines gone bust with new aircraft is quite impressive, so lets not make that list longer.

Also, "New" is only temporary... (The AVRO's were ordered new, and thouh actually not really that old, branded "old" for several years now) In a couple of years time, a new fleet will be exactly what the fleet is today. Only thing, they will actually all be identical. That is the only difference, together with the higher leasing cost... But... I am sure it will happen some day. Once the fleet harmonisation is finished, and a couple of years with profit are under the belt, the fleet will gradually be rejuvinated with new aircraft, ordered to their specs. And then still, it will take lots of years to complete, but give it time, and focus on SN. Don't look at other companies, the grass is Always greener on the other side. But just feed and grow your own lawn.

As for the third world comparisson... I rather fly a 15 year old aircraft maintained to Belgian/European standards, than a one year old aircraft maintained to African standards.

[sean1982]

Im pretty sure that in a few years time (10 or so?) SN will be flying A330NEO or A350's. Their management is intelligent enough to realise the advantages of operating new(er) airplanes vs an aging fleet. Not only the technical costs and fuel burn are important, also customer image. Allthough I agree that the A330's cabin looks fabulous, look how much JAF got in the picture with their "dreamliner" which in turn also generates additional revenue. If customers book and they can choose between a B767 from an american company or an A350, the choice is quickly made

[RTM]

True Sean.
My comment was based on the assumption that replacement by new aicraft was to be done by aircraft of the same type. Newer aircraft and/or engine types are ultimately the way to go.

[teach]

Im pretty sure that in a few years time (10 or so?) SN will be flying A330NEO or A350's. Their management is intelligent enough to realise the advantages of operating new(er) airplanes vs an aging fleet. Not only the technical costs and fuel burn are important, also customer image. Allthough I agree that the A330's cabin looks fabulous, look how much JAF got in the picture with their "dreamliner" which in turn also generates additional revenue. If customers book and they can choose between a B767 from an american company or an A350, the choice is quickly made

99% of people booking a flight couldn't possibly give a toss what type of plane they're on. Price, time of flight, airline familiarity or loyalty and perceived onboard service level all have considerably higher priority as criteria to choose an airline than the type of aircraft. That comes pretty much dead last for most people.

[sean1982]

I don't agree teach. The type maybe doesnt matter but the comfort associated with it does (I think it goes hand in hand with perceived onboard service level). Allthough it depends on individual airline configs, I have quite a few friends that swore NEVER to take a B757 TATL anymore (and they are not avgeeks )

[teach]

I don't agree teach. The type maybe doesnt matter but the comfort associated with it does (I think it goes hand in hand with perceived onboard service level). Allthough it depends on individual airline configs, I have quite a few friends that swore NEVER to take a B757 TATL anymore (and they are not avgeeks )

For 'perceived level of comfort' people just care about whether it's a big plane or a small one, that's it. The ype doesn't matter, and the large majority douldn't tell you type their flight was on if their lives depended on it. People not wanting to fly a 757 transatlantic is just because it's a narrowbody. The age of the plane or the type don't matter. And even then, pretty clearly people 'not wanting to fly' the 757 TATL clearly isn't enough of a problem for airlines to stop doing so.

[Conti764]

I don't agree teach. The type maybe doesnt matter but the comfort associated with it does (I think it goes hand in hand with perceived onboard service level). Allthough it depends on individual airline configs, I have quite a few friends that swore NEVER to take a B757 TATL anymore (and they are not avgeeks )

Understandably, because people feel too cramped in a single aisle airplane doing TATL flights. For the average airline customer big planes (thus double aisle) are the standard to fly long haul.

But I highly doubt the average passenger even knows how old an airplane is when boarding it. For all they know, SN's planes might be factory fresh, especially given their onboard product.

JAF got a lot of exposure with their Dreamliner, but only because the plane itself has been such a hype. Accept for some developments of excisting frames the B787 was the first clean sheat design that was developed in our highly mediatized community which Boeing used very cleverly in marketing the 787. Have you ever red a press report about the first 737NG JAF got? Or the first one with the Boeing Signature interior?

If tomorrow SN will order 15 brand new A330's, even if they are NEO's, people will hardly care about it.

[Jetter]

As SN is basically part of LH-group, I'm wondering why it's the only part of the group only ordering old planes. If there's a better business-case for old planes, wouldn't that apply to OS/LX as well? Meanwhile OS/LX are ordering many brand new planes.

Seems LH isn't eager to invest in SN and that's why old planes are the only option left, proves LH is not a committed partner imo.

Does any european operator has a worse fleet then SN ? No IB,AZ,BA,SK,AY,KL,LH,LX,...

Add AF, TP, EI and even A3 to that list, all have brand new airplanes on order. So sadly I guess you're right

[flightlover]

SN is going to get some new planes from LH. But only if LH is taking full control over SN.
In the mean time LH has the right to block any a/c order as they see fit.
A plane order is therefore not to be expected as long as this agreement stands.

So either they get some new ones after an acquisition by LH. Or they will have to wait until the option runs out without being renewed.

My bet is on the first option...

[Avroflyer]

Hi,

Speaking of third world countries...
Ethiopian,Kenya Airways,Arik Air... has brand new 787....
Ex eastern LOT has new B787...
Air Baltic gonna have brand new CS300...
Tarom will get a brand new Airbus fleet....
Air Serbia will have an A330 soon for their JFK flights....

Euh... guess WE are the third world country in this segment with our old Airbus planes and Jumbolinos....

Does any european operator has a worse fleet then SN ? No IB,AZ,BA,SK,AY,KL,LH,LX,...

CXB

Do you notice the difference between brand new aircraft and SN ones? No you dont because they are the same and they are in mint condition

Will SN get new planes ? Eventually they will but they need MONEY to buy brand new ones and that is basically what the focus is on... Getting back to profitability in order to have money to order those brand new planes

Besides I much rather see SN first invest in their route network (as they do now) in order to have a flourishing business and then when things are getting settled they can start replacing older planes... Give it some time

[RoMax]

As SN is basically part of LH-group, I'm wondering why it's the only part of the group only ordering old planes. If there's a better business-case for old planes, wouldn't that apply to OS/LX as well? Meanwhile OS/LX are ordering many brand new planes.

Actually OS is very actively adding 'old' aircraft to its fleet as well. Latest 772 that joined the fleet in 2014 was first flown by Aeroflot in 1998 and in the period 2012-2013 they added 7 A320's all from the years 2001-2003. Now they are adding relatively young, but still second-hand E195's from Lufthansa Cityline. All their other aircraft are in the fleet for almost 10 years now (most current aircraft were added to their fleet in the period before 2005). So no, OS does not add brand new aircraft to its fleet despite being fully owned by LH and no currently they don't have brand new aircraft on order either. It's just LH (including e.g. Eurowings) and LX.

Applying the logic of being a 'third-world country airline' with such a fleet, for example Delta Air Lines would perfectly fit that logic as well. Okay they add brand new aircraft to their fleet as well, but they very actively source aircraft from the used aircraft market (not just some, tens of them). Same for United more recently. And there are many other examples of major 'blue chip airlines' that are very active on adding used aircraft to their fleet (often aged 10+ years) as depending on the situation, they are often simply cheaper in overal cost than brand new aircraft, and in most cases they are much more rapidly available.

[cathay belgium]

Hi,

Just answer to mention that I don't care flying older airbus planes of SN, I know their are maintained by the best, I also prefer more network grew then investments in newer planes...
BUT
It's a fact that SN has the worst fleet in age , their A330auch ! , with NO fast grew nor replacements orders in sight... yeah... a few a320 ...
AND
in contrary we can see this with all expected airliners which we could expended much less investmenst from africa to ex eastern europe countries.

The LH option is taking ages to decide and the last years we see a minimal grow factor but still no action, no immediate actions on every opportunity which can occur...

Pretty nice to see what will happen when Jet leaves BRU, I expect not much... but hope for the best.
So yes, from a view from a distance LH isn't the best partner we could expected ...
maybe another alliance was a better option for the future...
LH,LX arent giving presents to their daughters...
OW could have been a better option in a quick view...
But we were alraedy happy to survive whatever it took...

Hoping I al wrong but guess a lot of people were thinking the same...
LH didn't gave SN the future we expected ... at least it took to long as we see something from them.
I see some destinations were handed over to SN, but other were gone to FRA...

If LH sees something in SN it will be just Eurowings,Belgianwings or so.. with a small AFRICAN longhaul fleet and JFK as gift for the AFI connections ...

CXB

[Avroflyer]

Hi,

Just answer to mention that I don't care flying older airbus planes of SN, I know their are maintained by the best, I also prefer more network grew then investments in newer planes...
BUT
It's a fact that SN has the worst fleet in age , their A330auch ! , with NO fast grew nor replacements orders in sight... yeah... a few a320 ...
AND
in contrary we can see this with all expected airliners which we could expended much less investmenst from africa to ex eastern europe countries.

The LH option is taking ages to decide and the last years we see a minimal grow factor but still no action, no immediate actions on every opportunity which can occur...

Pretty nice to see what will happen when Jet leaves BRU, I expect not much... but hope for the best.
So yes, from a view from a distance LH isn't the best partner we could expected ...
maybe another alliance was a better option for the future...
LH,LX arent giving presents to their daughters...
OW could have been a better option in a quick view...
But we were alraedy happy to survive whatever it took...

Hoping I al wrong but guess a lot of people were thinking the same...
LH didn't gave SN the future we expected ... at least it took to long as we see something from them.
I see some destinations were handed over to SN, but other were gone to FRA...

If LH sees something in SN it will be just Eurowings,Belgianwings or so.. with a small AFRICAN longhaul fleet and JFK as gift for the AFI connections ...

CXB

I get your point but trust me on this SN will surprise you... Behind the scenes there are quite some things going on with regards to the long haul sector so just wait another bit

I myselftoo am also a bit sceptical about what will happen if LH would take over but personally I don't see eurowings coming anytime soon... SN has such a strong brand especially in Africa so it would be kinda bad to throw that away...

[RTM]

May I also add that it is not fair to blame SN for getting old A330 aircraft?
The oldest three have been in the fleet since the demise of Sabena. Yes, a bit later, and first operated by Birdy, but basically inhereted from Sabena. And at that time, these machines were not old at all. About 7-8 years. They are just now coming to an age where the airline will have to start thinking about their replacement. Old now, but reliable, and in a good condition.
Of the other A330's, most have a solid history in Germany and/or Swiss. Meaning high quality of maintenance, and in good condition. With the last three, surely the involvement of LH playing a role.
Also, A330's are popular. At the times SN was shopping, not many were available, especially younger ones. So, take what you can get was probably a motto that was lived by. And machines that had operated in non EASA countries were probably dismissed as it would cost a small fortune to bring the maintenance up to spec.

[lumumba]

Hi,

Just answer to mention that I don't care flying older airbus planes of SN, I know their are maintained by the best, I also prefer more network grew then investments in newer planes...
BUT
It's a fact that SN has the worst fleet in age , their A330auch ! , with NO fast grew nor replacements orders in sight... yeah... a few a320 ...
AND
in contrary we can see this with all expected airliners which we could expended much less investmenst from africa to ex eastern europe countries.

The LH option is taking ages to decide and the last years we see a minimal grow factor but still no action, no immediate actions on every opportunity which can occur...

Pretty nice to see what will happen when Jet leaves BRU, I expect not much... but hope for the best.
So yes, from a view from a distance LH isn't the best partner we could expected ...
maybe another alliance was a better option for the future...
LH,LX arent giving presents to their daughters...
OW could have been a better option in a quick view...
But we were alraedy happy to survive whatever it took...

Hoping I al wrong but guess a lot of people were thinking the same...
LH didn't gave SN the future we expected ... at least it took to long as we see something from them.
I see some destinations were handed over to SN, but other were gone to FRA...

If LH sees something in SN it will be just Eurowings,Belgianwings or so.. with a small AFRICAN longhaul fleet and JFK as gift for the AFI connections ...

CXB

Nothing has to come from LH It's just a partnership even if they own all the Airline .
Brussels are part of Star and LH but thus not mean that LH has to put money in it.
Star is a win win situation that's the purpose of an alliance .
But I think we have to stop thinking that LH will save us it has to come from SN.
A good cost politic,I mean a low seat kilometer value and a smart management should make it work.

[RTM]

But I think we have to stop thinking that LH will save us.

Sorry, but aren't we forgetting that LH has already saved SN...?
Without the money from LH, SN would be in very, very, very tight shoes right now... If they would be still around at all that is.

[convair]

I get your point but trust me on this SN will surprise you... Behind the scenes there are quite some things going on with regards to the long haul sector so just wait another bit

I'll take your word for it, but we have been reading similar statements for months now, albeit mainly on the s/h fleet renewal/development. It looks like SN's management is more careful than ever despite the nice growth (at 2 digits for more than a year now!) and still hesitates to take bold decisions.
I think any company experiencing such growth would be expanding like crazy. I don't suggest them to do that but their ambition seems to be a bit too moderate imho.
And a bit off-topic now, although not completely: IF and when Jet Airways confirms its decision to leave BRU, SN should jump in immediately to take a good share of what would become available; their plans should be ready by now and made public right away, since this possibility has been in the air for more than 2 years now!

[lumumba]

But I think we have to stop thinking that LH will save us.

Sorry, but aren't we forgetting that LH has already saved SN...?
Without the money from LH, SN would be in very, very, very tight shoes right now... If they would be still around at all that is.

I understand that you can not built a company if you are undercapitalized.
If that money was not coming from LH it had to come from somewhere else.
SN is a very young company and believe me other airlines burned a lot more money to become profitable just think about Vueling!

[KriVa]

Money doesn't just fall out of the sky, though. There has to be a source for it.
LH has been part of that source for quite some time. Without LH, I think SN would have been in very dire straits by now.
As far as I know, SN's long haul product is looking to be quite promising in the future. The same comment has indeed been made quite a few times the past months, but it's not something you do overnight.

[lumumba]

Money doesn't just fall out of the sky, though. There has to be a source for it.
LH has been part of that source for quite some time. Without LH, I think SN would have been in very dire straits by now.

Maybe yes but SN was financed by banks and they now the rules of a business plan.
And SN is not exception like I already mentioned ex:Vueling.