Emirates may cancel A340 order if improvements are not made to the A340.
http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/20 ... +A340.html
Emirates is threatening Airbus with cancellation
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Emirates is threatening Airbus with cancellation
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can't believe an airline is having to push Airbus to make improvements!! I mean it is absolutely clear that B777s are superior to A340s. Under such circumstance, how can Airbus expect airlines to blindly choose their product over Boeing's?
They should design their aircrafts more with technology and 'pushing the boundry' in mind as opposed to cost-cutting and recent developments, although I do agree the latters are also crucial for a succesful company. Its beyond my belief that Airbus intedn on taking the all new B787-8/9/10 with their minimum improvement, rather an impromptuo A350 and crazilly enough, the B787-2/3 with A330s!!
I won't be surprised if the next decade is a disaster for Airbus.
They should design their aircrafts more with technology and 'pushing the boundry' in mind as opposed to cost-cutting and recent developments, although I do agree the latters are also crucial for a succesful company. Its beyond my belief that Airbus intedn on taking the all new B787-8/9/10 with their minimum improvement, rather an impromptuo A350 and crazilly enough, the B787-2/3 with A330s!!
I won't be surprised if the next decade is a disaster for Airbus.
It's not that bad ryanCX, not a long time ago Boeing had nothing competitive against the A340/A340, it takes just two or three successful models to gain back the market share. Furthermore the A340 has been around for a very long time and I do not believe Airbus is not going to replace it with something absolutely new within the next 10-15 years because by then the A340 would've been around for over 20 or so years? I believe the A350 and the A340E is just developments to fill the time gap between now and a brand new replacement comes, which is why Airbus is not building an entirely new A350, but I do hope that they can do something to further improve the A350. Of course it must be admitted that MAYBE Airbus was exhausted from the A380 and they do have no developments going on..
It comes down to cost-benefit. How much does AI spend, and how much benefit (sales and margin) can they anticipate in return.
AI is facing into the launch of an entire new family (A350) at the same time as working through A380 development and certification.
The Z-chart is getting very crowded in the 300pax long haul space. Looking out the 787-10, 777 and A350, while each extending in different directions, have some overlaps in the 2011 time frame. Thus fragmenting the market. Plus, given the recent market action most of the major near term new orders are announced already.
If AI started a new development program today they would need a new engine and a new airframe to make the efficiency gains needed to be competitive. A small improvement (cheaper and faster to execute) would not be attractive or worthwhile for the small market that remains in the near term. The first delivery of a major revision would therefore be around 20111 or later.
So AI is faced with a choice. Discount today's aircraft and move the product, or completely start over with a new product and leapfrog the 777-300ER/-200LR (no easy feat given they are starting so far behind). If they choose the latter they will have to take it on at the same time as designing and investing $BB in the A350 family, and convince an engine company to come along with them. Even then, how do they position this aircraft in the market, that in the 2011 timeframe will have a lot of choices. And how big is that market to begin with. So to have a competitive product will cost them more $BB, at least 1 probably closer to 2, and that investment may not ever pay back.
As they reposition the A350 to better match the 787, the -10 market space could be cannibalizing the A340. So they could be competing with themselves.
Also AI is now mostly publicly traded and more accountable for its investment returns.
You can imagine what a very, very tough set of choices this is.
AI is facing into the launch of an entire new family (A350) at the same time as working through A380 development and certification.
The Z-chart is getting very crowded in the 300pax long haul space. Looking out the 787-10, 777 and A350, while each extending in different directions, have some overlaps in the 2011 time frame. Thus fragmenting the market. Plus, given the recent market action most of the major near term new orders are announced already.
If AI started a new development program today they would need a new engine and a new airframe to make the efficiency gains needed to be competitive. A small improvement (cheaper and faster to execute) would not be attractive or worthwhile for the small market that remains in the near term. The first delivery of a major revision would therefore be around 20111 or later.
So AI is faced with a choice. Discount today's aircraft and move the product, or completely start over with a new product and leapfrog the 777-300ER/-200LR (no easy feat given they are starting so far behind). If they choose the latter they will have to take it on at the same time as designing and investing $BB in the A350 family, and convince an engine company to come along with them. Even then, how do they position this aircraft in the market, that in the 2011 timeframe will have a lot of choices. And how big is that market to begin with. So to have a competitive product will cost them more $BB, at least 1 probably closer to 2, and that investment may not ever pay back.
As they reposition the A350 to better match the 787, the -10 market space could be cannibalizing the A340. So they could be competing with themselves.
Also AI is now mostly publicly traded and more accountable for its investment returns.
You can imagine what a very, very tough set of choices this is.
Yes so is it correct, according to you, to say that the A350/A340E is the cheapest way to fill the time gap between now and the A340 replacement? Or do you believe Airbus really has no specific plans and are just trying to spend less and settle for runner up? After 2011 when both A350 and A340E enters service, they'll have maybe 5-10 years to get the A340 replacement flying, but they HAVE TO get it going before Boeing replaces their 777.
Airbus will i think for sure stretch the A350 to match/exceed the 787-10 capacity, they have nothing to lose because it will be Boeing who will be competing with its own 772, and the A343 is already dead and surely 787 cannot do anything to the A345 and A346 because it is the 772LR and 773ER that does the damage..
Airbus will i think for sure stretch the A350 to match/exceed the 787-10 capacity, they have nothing to lose because it will be Boeing who will be competing with its own 772, and the A343 is already dead and surely 787 cannot do anything to the A345 and A346 because it is the 772LR and 773ER that does the damage..
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fokker_f27
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If Airbus isn't going to moderenise the A340, then the only have the A380 as an aircraft that is superrior to one of Boeings aircraft. If not, a new design may be welcome. Maybe a new revolutionary aircraft in it's class? The A350 was an improved A330, and that wasn't so successful because of the 787 being a completly new design. So I think a completely new design would be a good idea. For the time being, an improved A340 can maybe be built.
The most sexy girl in the sky: The Sud-Est Caravelle 12.
I don't think you fully appreciate this yet. Today there is no A340E. There is no A340-replacement. There is only today's A340-500/600 and a lot of talk. Those choices need to be made. The 787 and 777 families are better, not because Boeing says so, but the orders say so. At the same time the A350 needs a major repsoitioning, some (ILFC and GECAS) have said, start over. The A380 is not completed. Lots and lots of expense, no revenue.
Tim Clark says customers will wait for the right product. That implies AI should take a big leap, not a small step. So to launch an A340 that is competitive amounts to an entire new development program, because the gap is so big; in the same timeframe as all the other work.
Sure is a fun business.
Tim Clark says customers will wait for the right product. That implies AI should take a big leap, not a small step. So to launch an A340 that is competitive amounts to an entire new development program, because the gap is so big; in the same timeframe as all the other work.
Sure is a fun business.
If Airsub is wise, they will listen to Tim Clark
and Steven Udvar Hazy.
These guys are the unbiased ones whose opionion should be seroiusly followed. Their interest is in choice.
These guys are the unbiased ones whose opionion should be seroiusly followed. Their interest is in choice.
At this moment we dont' hear Airbus brining out any major replacement for anything, except maybe the A320? But this does not mean that they actually don't have plans...
I do not believe those strategists or whatever you call them in Airbus are so stupid that they don't see they are being beaten and not planning to bring something entirely new.. i know, you know and of course they know that the so called 'improvements', such as the A340E will not make that much of a difference, and they must also know that their A350 is not really matching the 787 on performance... I do not believe they have no plans to better the Boeing planes in the next 10 years or so, and then Boeing will probably be in today's Airbus' situation, and then it swings back again..
I do not believe those strategists or whatever you call them in Airbus are so stupid that they don't see they are being beaten and not planning to bring something entirely new.. i know, you know and of course they know that the so called 'improvements', such as the A340E will not make that much of a difference, and they must also know that their A350 is not really matching the 787 on performance... I do not believe they have no plans to better the Boeing planes in the next 10 years or so, and then Boeing will probably be in today's Airbus' situation, and then it swings back again..
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Airbuspilot
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The rumours are that Qatar Airways allready took over the EK slots at airbus for the A340-600.
They probably got a huge discount from airbus. They where giving away the A340s allready with cash handouts anyway...
I really do not undertsand Airbus. THe A340-600 only started flying a couple of years ago and allready they are talking about an enhanced version. Off course you are going to upset premium customers.
The same lack of innovation that nearly caused Boeing to go bankrupt now is haunting airbus. The A350 is rejected in general, all over the world, because people see it as just a modern A330. The 787 is loved by everyone.
People love new airplanes, including passengers! And they pay our meal tickets dont they? And the A350 is just nog new enough!
They probably got a huge discount from airbus. They where giving away the A340s allready with cash handouts anyway...
I really do not undertsand Airbus. THe A340-600 only started flying a couple of years ago and allready they are talking about an enhanced version. Off course you are going to upset premium customers.
The same lack of innovation that nearly caused Boeing to go bankrupt now is haunting airbus. The A350 is rejected in general, all over the world, because people see it as just a modern A330. The 787 is loved by everyone.
People love new airplanes, including passengers! And they pay our meal tickets dont they? And the A350 is just nog new enough!
fokker_f27 wrote:If Airbus isn't going to moderenise the A340, then the only have the A380 as an aircraft that is superrior to one of Boeings aircraft. If not, a new design may be welcome. Maybe a new revolutionary aircraft in it's class?
Hahaha you made me laugh there !!!
What makes you say that the A380 is the only plane better than a Boeing plane ? And what makes you say the A380 is superior after all ?? BAsed on which facts are you claiming this ?
If this was true I suppose Airbus could have closed the A320 and A330 lines already.
For your information: You CANNOT categorize planes like that. An A320 might be better for airline A and a B737 better for airline B while a mix of both will be preferred at airline C. And this counts for every airliner. Why an airline opts for Airbus or Boeing depends on many factors. just to name a few, you'll have technical performance criterias, financial criterias etc... (and sad to say so but sometimes even political criterias).
Both companies build planes which are often quite similar hence the harsh competition. Although I admit that the 777 seems to be "superiror" (looking at the orders) compared to some airbus products, it does not justify your comment.
Why can't a modernized design be good enough to compete with a new design ? here again I don't see the logic of your comment. FYI the new design's of the B737 were perfectly able to compete against the A320 !!!
The A350 was an improved A330, and that wasn't so successful because of the 787 being a completly new design. So I think a completely new design would be a good idea.
That's all I need to say. (sorry for being off topic but I had to react on this).
Chris
For the most part, I like Boeings but I also like to be even handed....if that's possible. I don't think the 350 is now, or will be, a failure. I think it'll sell well enough to make few bucks on the model.
It'll probably be much cheaper than the 787. This will make it suitable to airlines who worry more about up front costs than long term expenses.
Look what a new wing and engines did for the 737. It doesn't have as many of the improvements of the 320 series, but it's still a very good seller....despite its shortcomings.
I think the 350 will keep them in the market until they come up with their next big thing. The 330 still has a lot going for it and the 350 is, to a large degree, a better 330.
It'll probably be much cheaper than the 787. This will make it suitable to airlines who worry more about up front costs than long term expenses.
Look what a new wing and engines did for the 737. It doesn't have as many of the improvements of the 320 series, but it's still a very good seller....despite its shortcomings.
I think the 350 will keep them in the market until they come up with their next big thing. The 330 still has a lot going for it and the 350 is, to a large degree, a better 330.
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fokker_f27
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I'm talking about the goals of the aircraft. A380 and 747 have capacity as a goual. The A380 has higher capacity then the 744. And in 787 vs the a350: both aimed on efficiency. And the 787 is more eficcient because it's lighter. And the A320 and 737 are about equal.Avro wrote:fokker_f27 wrote:If Airbus isn't going to moderenise the A340, then the only have the A380 as an aircraft that is superrior to one of Boeings aircraft. If not, a new design may be welcome. Maybe a new revolutionary aircraft in it's class?
Hahaha you made me laugh there !!!
What makes you say that the A380 is the only plane better than a Boeing plane ? And what makes you say the A380 is superior after all ?? BAsed on which facts are you claiming this ?
If this was true I suppose Airbus could have closed the A320 and A330 lines already.
For your information: You CANNOT categorize planes like that. An A320 might be better for airline A and a B737 better for airline B while a mix of both will be preferred at airline C. And this counts for every airliner. Why an airline opts for Airbus or Boeing depends on many factors. just to name a few, you'll have technical performance criterias, financial criterias etc... (and sad to say so but sometimes even political criterias).
Both companies build planes which are often quite similar hence the harsh competition. Although I admit that the 777 seems to be "superiror" (looking at the orders) compared to some airbus products, it does not justify your comment.
Chris
The most sexy girl in the sky: The Sud-Est Caravelle 12.
Well I guess all models are aimed at 'efficiency'. But it must be agreed that the A350 is simply somethign to 'fill the gap' and keep them in market between now and their next big thing.. imo thinking back Airbus is now in a better situation than was Boeing, because Boeing's sonic cruiser was 'a mistake' (after the 911 of course) and that really halted them, but at the moment I don't think situations has changed so much that the A380 or anything else from Airbus has become a mistake.