Brussels Airlines Avro RJ100 flaps problems
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Brussels Airlines Avro RJ100 flaps problems
Brussels Airlines Avro RJ-100, registration OO-DWD performing flight SN-2319 from Brussels (Belgium) to Gothenburg (Sweden) with 94 passengers, aborted the approach to Gothenburg's Landvetter Airport when the flaps did not extend. All troubleshooting efforts could not resolve the problem, so that the crew needed to perform a flapless landing about 30 minutes later. The landing at high speed was safe.
The return flight the following morning (Nov 17th) is currently estimated to depart with a delay of more than 3 hours.
source: AV Herald
The return flight the following morning (Nov 17th) is currently estimated to depart with a delay of more than 3 hours.
source: AV Herald
Last edited by sn26567 on 21 Nov 2010, 21:57, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Changed title to make it more generic
Reason: Changed title to make it more generic
Re: Brussels Airlines RJ1H at Gothenburg flaps problem
It's not unusual to have flap problems on the Avro. It's a known issue.Boeing767copilot wrote:Brussels Airlines Avro RJ-100, registration OO-DWD performing flight SN-2319 from Brussels (Belgium) to Gothenburg (Sweden) with 94 passengers, aborted the approach to Gothenburg's Landvetter Airport when the flaps did not extend. All troubleshooting efforts could not resolve the problem, so that the crew needed to perform a flapless landing about 30 minutes later. The landing at high speed was safe.
The return flight the following morning (Nov 17th) is currently estimated to depart with a delay of more than 3 hours.
source: AV Herald
The grease used to lubricate the flap system has the capability of absorbing alot of water.
If you get into colder, moister weather the grease becomes a bit thicker... This is picked up by the torque limiter and the flap computer quits immediately.
The grease should be checked regularly...
Re: Brussels Airlines RJ1H at Gothenburg flaps problem
Oh, and 94 passengers on a maximum of 97, that is a loadfactor of +- 97%.
Although average loadfactors will tell you a lot more, this is already a good step to break-even...
Although average loadfactors will tell you a lot more, this is already a good step to break-even...
Re: Brussels Airlines RJ1H at Gothenburg flaps problem
Is there no other grease available?
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Re: Brussels Airlines RJ1H at Gothenburg flaps problem
This sounds a little bit unprofessional, apparently the servicing including the greasing is not a priority @ Brussels Airlines, I would not be surprised to have the authorities having a closer look on the maintenance team...Polaris wrote: It's not unusual to have flap problems on the Avro. It's a known issue.
The grease used to lubricate the flap system has the capability of absorbing alot of water.
If you get into colder, moister weather the grease becomes a bit thicker... This is picked up by the torque limiter and the flap computer quits immediately.
The grease should be checked regularly...
Lack of professionalism and seriousness leads to incident !!!
Re: Brussels Airlines RJ1H at Gothenburg flaps problem
Brussels Airlines RJ1H at Vienna on Nov 3rd 2010, flaps problem
Here is another one...
Maintenance at Brussels Airlines still is of the highest standards...
Here is another one...
Oh, and it's not a problem of bad maintenance. These are things that just can't be foreseen.This sounds a little bit unprofessional, apparently the servicing including the greasing is not a priority @ Brussels Airlines, I would not be surprised to have the authorities having a closer look on the maintenance team...
Lack of professionalism and seriousness leads to incident !!!
Maintenance at Brussels Airlines still is of the highest standards...
Re: Brussels Airlines RJ1H at Gothenburg flaps problem
GOT is one of the routes wich will be upgraded in S11, from 3 daily RJ100 to 2 daily RJ100 and 1 daily B734. So I assume GOT is performing pretty good.Polaris wrote:Oh, and 94 passengers on a maximum of 97, that is a loadfactor of +- 97%.
Although average loadfactors will tell you a lot more, this is already a good step to break-even...
About the flap problems. It seems to be a typicall RJ problem indeed. I remember several incidents with SN RJ's wich had flap issues.
Re: Brussels Airlines RJ1H at Gothenburg flaps problem
Indeed. SN has a pretty old fleet, but their maintenance is excellent, otherwise you would hear much more about technical issues at SN.Polaris wrote:Oh, and it's not a problem of bad maintenance. These are things that just can't be foreseen.This sounds a little bit unprofessional, apparently the servicing including the greasing is not a priority @ Brussels Airlines, I would not be surprised to have the authorities having a closer look on the maintenance team...
Lack of professionalism and seriousness leads to incident !!!
Maintenance at Brussels Airlines still is of the highest standards...
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Re: Brussels Airlines RJ1H at Gothenburg flaps problem
If you know that there's a grease issue with the flaps, I guess that by reducing the interval of the lubrication tasks or wipping the excess of grease while performing the greasing would help...
Now, if it is a design issue where there's water ingression in the flap gearboxes,torquelimiter or wing tip brake...this should be reported to the manufacturer(???) and dealt with.
Flaps 0 landing is quite a serious incident.
Now, if it is a design issue where there's water ingression in the flap gearboxes,torquelimiter or wing tip brake...this should be reported to the manufacturer(???) and dealt with.
Flaps 0 landing is quite a serious incident.
- tolipanebas
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Re: Brussels Airlines RJ1H at Gothenburg flaps problem
It does, and it is done, yet no action will result in a guaranteed zero percent occurance rate....Desert Rat wrote:If you know that there's a grease issue with the flaps, I guess that by reducing the interval of the lubrication tasks or wipping the excess of grease while performing the greasing would help...
BAe Systems knows about this as it's one of the weak spots of the 146, just as there are weak spots on the 737, the A320 or in fact any other plane flying. One of their recommendations is to grease regularly, which is done according to manufacturer's specifications. As said, nothing is infallible though.Desert Rat wrote:If it is a design issue where there's water ingression in the flap gearboxes,torquelimiter or wing tip brake...this should be reported to the manufacturer(???) and dealt with.
Actually, on the BAe146/RJ it's almost a non-event really, due to its design (huge huge wing, low approach speeds and lack of slats): in fact, a flapless landing on this plane feels almost like any normal landing on the 737, it's the normal landing on the Bae146/RJ which pilots must get used to when converting from another plane...Desert Rat wrote:Flaps 0 landing is quite a serious incident.
Re: Brussels Airlines RJ1H at Gothenburg flaps problem
Incident: Brussels Airlines RJ1H at Bologna on Nov 18th 2010, flaps problem
Edit: Same aircraft!
As we say in aviation, never two without three! It's just a sign that winter is coming. I'm pretty sure that a reminder will be sent to the flight crew and maintenance and that this type of 'incident' will reduce again...A Brussels Airlines Avro RJ-100, registration OO-DWD performing flight SN-3123 from Brussels (Belgium) to Bologna (Italy), was on approach to Bologna's runway 12 descending through 2500 feet AGL when the crew aborted the approach due to problems with the flaps. The airplane entered a holding at 4000 feet for about one hour before the crew commenced another approach to runway 12 resulting in a safe landing at a higher than normal speed.
The return flight was cancelled.
The incident aircraft had suffered from a similiar problem the day before, see: Incident: Brussels Airlines RJ1H at Gothenburg on Nov 16th 2010, flaps problem.
Edit: Same aircraft!
Re: Brussels Airlines RJ1H at Gothenburg flaps problem
Problems have been reported on MSN.be:
Brussels airlines: deux atterrissages sans volets en deux semaines
Un avion de la compagnie aérienne belge Brussels Airlines a été contraint d'opérer un atterrissage sans volets mercredi vers 21h10 lors de son arrivée à l'aéroport international de Gothenburg en Suède après qu'un problème mécanique ait empêché leur sortie, ont indiqué les sites internet crash-aerien.areo, luchtzak.be et avherald.com. Un même incident a été répertorié le 3 novembre.
Full article in French:
http://actualite.fr.be.msn.com/actualit ... =155292440
Brussels airlines: deux atterrissages sans volets en deux semaines
Un avion de la compagnie aérienne belge Brussels Airlines a été contraint d'opérer un atterrissage sans volets mercredi vers 21h10 lors de son arrivée à l'aéroport international de Gothenburg en Suède après qu'un problème mécanique ait empêché leur sortie, ont indiqué les sites internet crash-aerien.areo, luchtzak.be et avherald.com. Un même incident a été répertorié le 3 novembre.
Full article in French:
http://actualite.fr.be.msn.com/actualit ... =155292440
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Re: Brussels Airlines RJ1H at Gothenburg flaps problem
Belga:
Een toestel van de Belgische luchtvaartmaatschappij Brussels Airlines heeft gisteren om 21.10 uur een landing moeten maken op de luchthaven van Göteborg in Zweden zonder gebruik te kunnen maken van de flaps. Oorzaak was een mechanisch probleem. Dat meldden de websites crash-aerien.areo, luchtzak.be en avherald.com. Een gelijkaardig incident vond plaats op 3 november.
Een Avro RJ-100 vloog tussen Brussels Airport en de internationale luchthaven van Göteborg. Er waren 94 passagiers aan boord van vlucht SN-2319. Bij aankomst meldden de piloten een mechanisch probleem, waardoor de flaps op de vleugels niet konden gebruikt worden. Volgens de websites besloten ze om te landen zonder flaps na meerdere pogingen om het probleem te verhelpen.
De websites spreken van een gelijkaardig incident op 3 november op een vlucht van Brussels Airlines van Brussel naar Wenen. Website luchtzak.be heeft het ook over een Avro RJ-100. Met een half uur vertraging kon vlucht SN-2905 toch zonder problemen landen op de luchthaven van Oostenrijk.
Brussels Airlines was vanavond niet bereikbaar
Atterrissages sans volets : Brussels Airlines nuance
vendredi 19 novembre 2010, 00:22
Brussels Airlines a souhaité nuancer jeudi soir l’information sur deux atterrissages à problèmes survenus avec des appareils de type AVRO. « Les deux problèmes techniques rapportés par un site internet et repris par deux autres sites internet n’ont conduit à aucun moment à des problèmes en matière de sécurité », indique jeudi soir la compagnie aérienne Brussels Airlines dans un communiqué. « Un avion de type AVRO peut effectuer sans problème un atterrissage sans volets et les pilotes y sont également entraînés. Les deux atterrissages se sont dès lors déroulés sans problème. Les pilotes n’ont pas dû effectuer d’atterrissage d’urgence et les passagers n’ont à aucun moment été en danger. » Brussels Airlines étudie les deux incidents techniques et a indiqué qu’à l’heure actuelle aucun lien n’a été constaté entre les deux.
Een toestel van de Belgische luchtvaartmaatschappij Brussels Airlines heeft gisteren om 21.10 uur een landing moeten maken op de luchthaven van Göteborg in Zweden zonder gebruik te kunnen maken van de flaps. Oorzaak was een mechanisch probleem. Dat meldden de websites crash-aerien.areo, luchtzak.be en avherald.com. Een gelijkaardig incident vond plaats op 3 november.
Een Avro RJ-100 vloog tussen Brussels Airport en de internationale luchthaven van Göteborg. Er waren 94 passagiers aan boord van vlucht SN-2319. Bij aankomst meldden de piloten een mechanisch probleem, waardoor de flaps op de vleugels niet konden gebruikt worden. Volgens de websites besloten ze om te landen zonder flaps na meerdere pogingen om het probleem te verhelpen.
De websites spreken van een gelijkaardig incident op 3 november op een vlucht van Brussels Airlines van Brussel naar Wenen. Website luchtzak.be heeft het ook over een Avro RJ-100. Met een half uur vertraging kon vlucht SN-2905 toch zonder problemen landen op de luchthaven van Oostenrijk.
Brussels Airlines was vanavond niet bereikbaar
Atterrissages sans volets : Brussels Airlines nuance
vendredi 19 novembre 2010, 00:22
Brussels Airlines a souhaité nuancer jeudi soir l’information sur deux atterrissages à problèmes survenus avec des appareils de type AVRO. « Les deux problèmes techniques rapportés par un site internet et repris par deux autres sites internet n’ont conduit à aucun moment à des problèmes en matière de sécurité », indique jeudi soir la compagnie aérienne Brussels Airlines dans un communiqué. « Un avion de type AVRO peut effectuer sans problème un atterrissage sans volets et les pilotes y sont également entraînés. Les deux atterrissages se sont dès lors déroulés sans problème. Les pilotes n’ont pas dû effectuer d’atterrissage d’urgence et les passagers n’ont à aucun moment été en danger. » Brussels Airlines étudie les deux incidents techniques et a indiqué qu’à l’heure actuelle aucun lien n’a été constaté entre les deux.
- cathay belgium
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Re: Brussels Airlines RJ1H at Gothenburg flaps problem
GO LUCHTZAK
Wait until they discover more news from our website regarding FR,SN replacements,...
Regi, your chance for your one minute of fame internationally !!
Luchtzak, is this mentioning a previouw on the birthday of luchtzak.be which comes nearer...
Cx-B
Wait until they discover more news from our website regarding FR,SN replacements,...
Regi, your chance for your one minute of fame internationally !!
Luchtzak, is this mentioning a previouw on the birthday of luchtzak.be which comes nearer...
Cx-B
New types flown 2022.. A339
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Re: Brussels Airlines RJ1H at Gothenburg flaps problem
This is a typical comment that could be use in a human factor training, where the fatality is invoked to excuse technical problem.Polaris wrote:As we say in aviation, never two without three! It's just a sign that winter is coming. I'm pretty sure that a reminder will be sent to the flight crew and maintenance and that this type of 'incident' will reduce again...
Edit: Same aircraft!
Re: Brussels Airlines RJ1H at Gothenburg flaps problem
I'm not sure what you want to say with the last part, but I want to clarify that I don't see this as a 'bagatel'. It is still a non-normal procedure that should be handled with care... The crew is trained to handle with these situations, and they did well...Desert Rat wrote:This is a typical comment that could be use in a human factor training, where the fatality is invoked to excuse technical problem.Polaris wrote:As we say in aviation, never two without three! It's just a sign that winter is coming. I'm pretty sure that a reminder will be sent to the flight crew and maintenance and that this type of 'incident' will reduce again...
Edit: Same aircraft!
Just to let you know, the Avro is fully equiped to handle this. Have you ever seen the brakes on this type of airplane? They are enormous! (because the Avro has no reverse as well) I don't know of any pilot who has ever dared to use max braking. If you do, then the other pilot one would be with his nose on the glareshield!
And you also have the airbrakes. They add drag, but most importantly, they cause the aircraft to be more controllable at low speeds...
Re: Brussels Airlines RJ1H at Gothenburg flaps problem
There is line of lawyers standing in front of my office. My security gave them formulars to fill in ( with obligatory questions ( such as "what is your favorite folk song?; how late do you want to receive your organic meal been served?; give your electronic XYZ bank account nr. on which we can pay all your claims ) and pick a number.cathay belgium wrote:GO LUCHTZAK
Wait until they discover more news from our website regarding FR,SN replacements,...
Regi, your chance for your one minute of fame internationally !!
Luchtzak, is this mentioning a previouw on the birthday of luchtzak.be which comes nearer...
Cx-B
They are also given the phone number , but they have not figured out yet it is of the local kebab shop. Lawyers seem to be unable to speak Kurdish
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Re: Brussels Airlines RJ1H at Gothenburg flaps problem
Great, the more you talk, the more I feel you like you'r stuck in the mud...you might be a very" junior" engineer, or may be a very very "junior" F/O, but the things you write down are quite funny...Polaris wrote: I don't know of any pilot who has ever dared to use max braking. If you do, then the other pilot one would be with his nose on the glareshield!
And you also have the airbrakes. They add drag, but most importantly, they cause the aircraft to be more controllable at low speeds...
Why would you select Max brake when you land?
if you don't know it's quite OK, but please don't talk in the name of Brussels Airlines, because during my Sabena time we were a bit more professional!
Groetjes,
DR
Re: Brussels Airlines RJ1H at Gothenburg flaps problem
@ Desert Rat,
I'm a senior pretty frequent flyer, no pilot or engineer! But when do you use Max Brake then?
And now we're on the subject of landings... why do Ryanair landings always seem to be faster then BruAir/JAF/LH... and why do they always slam it into the runway? (No, windspeed, winddirection or runway length is not at play). No I don't want to start another Ryanair bashing, its just a question, maybe there's a good reason.
Some extra's because it's Friday:
How do you know a guy is a pilot? Don's worry he'll tell you!
What's the difference between a train and an engineer? When a train derails, it stops!
Cheers mates,
Stij
I'm a senior pretty frequent flyer, no pilot or engineer! But when do you use Max Brake then?
And now we're on the subject of landings... why do Ryanair landings always seem to be faster then BruAir/JAF/LH... and why do they always slam it into the runway? (No, windspeed, winddirection or runway length is not at play). No I don't want to start another Ryanair bashing, its just a question, maybe there's a good reason.
Some extra's because it's Friday:
How do you know a guy is a pilot? Don's worry he'll tell you!
What's the difference between a train and an engineer? When a train derails, it stops!
Cheers mates,
Stij
- tolipanebas
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Re: Brussels Airlines RJ1H at Gothenburg flaps problem
Actually Desert Rat, without wanting to get involved in your personal conflict with Polaris, he is right:
the Avro RJ is uniquely equipped with an incredible number of carbon disk brakes which allow it to stop on a very short distance: an RJ 100 can stop on less than 800m at max landing weight (over 40T)!
No other civil jet comes even close to that.
I don't know if you know what carbon brakes are?
It's what the Porsche and Ferrari drivers pay a fortune for, just to have a very thin set of....
Well, the RJ has a massive set with multiple disks on each main wheel, which probably cost the full list price of an entire Ferrari per landing gear and it was done because the AVRO needed to have STOL performance without use of any reverse thrust to remain within the very strict noise requirements of LCY, but it also helps it out in other situations, although if you'd make full use of the braking capacity on a normal landing, it would indeed scare quite a lot of people due to the incredible deceleration it would result in.
Now, do we dare to use it and if yes, when so? Sure, during a high speed aborted take-off for instance...
the Avro RJ is uniquely equipped with an incredible number of carbon disk brakes which allow it to stop on a very short distance: an RJ 100 can stop on less than 800m at max landing weight (over 40T)!
No other civil jet comes even close to that.
I don't know if you know what carbon brakes are?
It's what the Porsche and Ferrari drivers pay a fortune for, just to have a very thin set of....
Well, the RJ has a massive set with multiple disks on each main wheel, which probably cost the full list price of an entire Ferrari per landing gear and it was done because the AVRO needed to have STOL performance without use of any reverse thrust to remain within the very strict noise requirements of LCY, but it also helps it out in other situations, although if you'd make full use of the braking capacity on a normal landing, it would indeed scare quite a lot of people due to the incredible deceleration it would result in.
Now, do we dare to use it and if yes, when so? Sure, during a high speed aborted take-off for instance...
Last edited by tolipanebas on 19 Nov 2010, 15:42, edited 1 time in total.