Hazardous effect of laser pens

Join this forum to discuss the latest news that happened in the world of commercial aviation.

Moderator: Latest news team

teddybAIR
Posts: 1602
Joined: 02 Mar 2004, 00:00
Location: Steenokkerzeel
Contact:

Hazardous effect of laser pens

Post by teddybAIR »

I just wanted to provide some objective facts on the discussions that are going on whether the reactions of the Belgian Air Force are exagerated/proportional or not. In my search, I found this study, published by the World Health Organisation. It amongst others states:
The body’s natural aversion responses are unlikely to provide adequate protectionfrom eye injury for Class 3B laser pointers and Class 3A laser pointers used with optical
aids. Although the risk of permanent eye injury from a laser pointer may be small, a person
receiving even a transient eye exposure will experience a bright flash, a dazzling effect,
which is likely to cause distraction and temporary loss of vision in the affected eye and
possibly after-images
. The time taken to recover from these effects will vary for different
people and will also be dependent on the ambient light level at the time of exposure...
My personal conclusion is that it is totally justified to make a stand since accidents are going to happen. Until today, I have not been confronted with laser beams in flight, but this summer holiday I saw one entering my hotel room when I was quietly reading a book. I was supprised by the strenght and before the loonatic would succeed in flashing it into my eyes, I closed the curtains just out of precaution. From what I saw, I'm quite convinced that it would totally screw your night vision if you were confronted with it on final approach and the outcome would be highly unpredictable.

I hope this puts things a little bit into perspective

regi
Posts: 5140
Joined: 02 Sep 2004, 00:00
Location: Bruges

Re: Hazardous effect of laser pens

Post by regi »

very dangerous !
lasers are used in warfare against snipers, by sending a laser beam in their scopes. It blinds them forever.

Accidents have happened with people who have spotting scopes and are suddenly targeted by somebody , resulting in blindness.
Despite it is banned in warfare, article 3 gives the way out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_o ... er_Weapons

Also interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dazzler_(weapon)

And if you wondered why no more insurgents take out western soldiers with a 50 € rifle scope from Dealextreme, this is why:
http://defensetech.org/2013/05/15/detec ... fle-scopes

teddybAIR
Posts: 1602
Joined: 02 Mar 2004, 00:00
Location: Steenokkerzeel
Contact:

Re: Hazardous effect of laser pens

Post by teddybAIR »

Thank you regi,

very interesting links. Has anyone on the forum experienced an encounter with laser beams?

Best regards,
bAIR

Acid-drop
Posts: 2883
Joined: 29 Jun 2005, 00:00
Location: Liège, BE
Contact:

Re: Hazardous effect of laser pens

Post by Acid-drop »

I have, as a pax, in Brazil...
But it's almost impossible for the idiot to keep pointing steady to the plane, so you get blinded only 1/10 of a second. Enough to wonder what the hell happened, but not enough to get any impact. From my experience, it's less than a camera flash.
A green laser beam is dangerous for the eyes if the duration is long enough, which is in really extremely unlikely to happen ...
The risk is actually much more present in a football stadium.
lasers are used in warfare against snipers, by sending a laser beam in their scopes. It blinds them forever.
This kind isn't really something we should discuss ... let's be realistic.
The real issue are those green 15mw laser you can buy online for 30$.
My messages reflect my personal opinion which may be different than yours. I beleive a forum is made to create a debate so I encourage people to express themselves, the way they want, with the ideas they want. I expect the same understanding in return.

Wim@TCAB
Posts: 37
Joined: 16 Jul 2013, 00:54

Re: Hazardous effect of laser pens

Post by Wim@TCAB »

teddybAIR wrote:Thank you regi,

very interesting links. Has anyone on the forum experienced an encounter with laser beams?

Best regards,
bAIR
I have, as a pilot. This summer, I had 3 laser encouters: 1 in PMI (Palma de Mallorca) and 2 in VAR (Varna). In Palma and one of the lasers in Varna, we were 'lasered' from a distance, and then it's only a huge distraction, especially being in final approach.
But the other encounter in Varna was from just right of the extended centerline, during final approach. You fly low and slow, and it was a strong light. We didn't get the light in our eyes, since we immediately looked down on our instruments (and not outside).
So, unfortunately, it happens quite often. Hope those people eventually will get some common sense, and stop with this dangerous 'game'.

Passenger
Posts: 7278
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Hazardous effect of laser pens

Post by Passenger »

teddybAIR wrote:"... I just wanted to provide some objective facts on the discussions that are going on whether the reactions of the Belgian Air Force are exagerated/proportional or not...
That's the way this topic was started, and allow me to give some more details about it being hot news now.

Last Tuesday evening, there was a man hunt against lasers, organized by the Air Force base Kleine Brogel (= F-16's), the national police (with their heli's) and the regional police (lots of police cars). One police heli was able to localize one pointer, and "ground troops" were able to arrest the 25-year old man with a laser in his hand. He remained in jail till Wednesday, when he declared that he didn't knew that it was possible to "hit" a pilot and that he didn't intend to harm someone.

Unfortunately, the press focussed too much on the possible jail sentence for these crimes: "10 to 20 years", all press said/wrote. I think that more people will be scared off when they hear "5.000 euro fine", rather than "10 to 20 years in prison". Anyway: fact is that many Johnny's now know that there is a real chance that they get arrested, and the fact that the press reported that this laser guy was in jail for one night will scare them off.

Some news reports about last Tuesday's operation:

http://nieuws.vtm.be/binnenland/61597-p ... aar-lasers

http://www.hbvl.be/krantenkoppen/zoeken ... g=laserpen

Acid-drop
Posts: 2883
Joined: 29 Jun 2005, 00:00
Location: Liège, BE
Contact:

Re: Hazardous effect of laser pens

Post by Acid-drop »

if it's the first time you stand in a court, you can always play stupid and go home free, especially if there is no harm done.
it's indeed not obvious that the beam would be able to go as far as reaching a plane...
My messages reflect my personal opinion which may be different than yours. I beleive a forum is made to create a debate so I encourage people to express themselves, the way they want, with the ideas they want. I expect the same understanding in return.

Elpiloto
Posts: 14
Joined: 27 Sep 2013, 19:05

Re: Hazardous effect of laser pens

Post by Elpiloto »

I can tell you that a laser attack, in your face, can be very dangerous!!
As I always fly at night, I have had about 10 attacks during Take-off but more during landing.

Once, this laser hit me right in the eyes!!
at that moment you really lose your bearings and you are, just for one seccond, blinded.
This was on short final at about 500ft AGL..... I can tell you, this is f***ing dangerous!!

so, I can see why they make such a big thing out off this and will use this to make an example!!

hvs89
Posts: 560
Joined: 30 Apr 2010, 23:52

Re: Hazardous effect of laser pens

Post by hvs89 »

Two people have been condemned to 3 and 6 months jail (suspended, "sursis") in the past (sorry in French only):

http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france ... -laser.php

http://archives-lepost.huffingtonpost.f ... vions.html

Nevihta
Posts: 444
Joined: 24 Dec 2008, 16:31

Re: Hazardous effect of laser pens

Post by Nevihta »

Those who claim this is not so dangerous should really take some informations...
There's not only the blinding problem, also distraction at a time pilots need to be really concentrated (approach...).
Let's make some examples :twisted:

regi
Posts: 5140
Joined: 02 Sep 2004, 00:00
Location: Bruges

Re: Hazardous effect of laser pens

Post by regi »

The arrest of the culprit shows also that the sender of a laser beam can be tracked within a blink ;) .
In warfare, the use of laser detectors is now of such a quality that it has changed the battle field seriously. Simply said: the moment that you switch on a laser, you are detected. And you get a precision guided mortar bomb/rocket/artillery shell on your head before you could take your shot. I have seen > 10 years ago already very scary and impressive demonstrations: a laser was pointed at a MBT and within 1 - 2 seconds, the tank had its barrel turned towards the laser " I know where you are :twisted: ". I can tell you: you must be high on quat to carry on with your suicide mission.
MBT's carry these detectors, and send out data immediately to commando centers.
These laser detectors are now also been installed on smaller vehicles, helicopters, airplanes, but even uniforms.
This stuff: http://www.elbitsystems.com/elbitmain/a ... 1&num2=261

I have no idea about the cost or sense. Would it be useful to put laser detectors on civilian airplanes ? There is no sense in detecting and locating the emitor if police cannot react swiftly.
The Belgian case showed how much effort it costed to catch this one culprit.

Experience: in a movie theatre ! Youth gang enoyed the other visitors by using laser pens on the screen. Stupid: by the system of the movie theatre, the culprits were caught immediately and removed. You should have seen their faces. Belonging to the specific group of inhabitants " I have done nothing wrong, you are a racist SHOUT SHOUT SHOUT" , they were flabbergasted when the young female attendant fingerpointed 2 boys "you and you" out of the group > 10. You could hear their nut size brains shake and overheat under the question " how could they know?" :mrgreen:
Movie was suspended, we got a replacement ticket - except of the youth gang who could hit the street with their popcorn.

Elpiloto
Posts: 14
Joined: 27 Sep 2013, 19:05

Re: Hazardous effect of laser pens

Post by Elpiloto »

People get caught because pilots make report to the tower and can, very precise, say at which altitude, bearing they had the attack..
If enough pilots make the same report, than the police can look even closer to where it comes from..

Most of the time it is young people having fun but don't realise how dangerous it can be.
But if it is an adult, who does this because the airplaines make to much noise, according to him/her, than punishment must be given!!

Nevihta
Posts: 444
Joined: 24 Dec 2008, 16:31

Re: Hazardous effect of laser pens

Post by Nevihta »

Well, in Belgium, police is not that used to laser reports from tower, but things start to move...
A little less annoying, but they also do point at the towers...

regi
Posts: 5140
Joined: 02 Sep 2004, 00:00
Location: Bruges

Re: Hazardous effect of laser pens

Post by regi »

for those asocial Breitvik kind of lone wolf types, I would suggest a 1 month boot camp of Russian conscripts.
I bet that their hunger for "playing soldier" will be erased.

AF036
Posts: 245
Joined: 20 Apr 2005, 00:00
Location: Europe

Re: Hazardous effect of laser pens

Post by AF036 »

at night a very good way to avoid being attacked is to switch off all the exterior lights!
I tried it a couple of times and it works very well ! of course we can't do that for an extended period of time...

cnc
Posts: 1311
Joined: 19 May 2009, 16:14

Re: Hazardous effect of laser pens

Post by cnc »

regi wrote: I have no idea about the cost or sense. Would it be useful to put laser detectors on civilian airplanes ? [youtube]There is no sense in detecting and locating the emitor if police cannot react swiftly.
The Belgian case showed how much effort it costed to catch this one culprit.
i think a layer on the cockpit glass to divert the laserbeam is a cheaper and more effective solution.

Elpiloto
Posts: 14
Joined: 27 Sep 2013, 19:05

Re: Hazardous effect of laser pens

Post by Elpiloto »

Turning off light might seems like a solution but when you are in the ost critical phase off your flight, you are not going to do this....

A special layer on the windscreen would be a solution but this will cost money and windscreens are not cheap at this moment, the companies wouldn't be happy with this.

catching them and giving them proper punishment is, for me, the best solution!!

Passenger
Posts: 7278
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Hazardous effect of laser pens

Post by Passenger »

Last Tuesday evening (26/09/2013), there was a man hunt against lasers, organized by the Air Force base Kleine Brogel (= F-16's), the national police (with their heli's) and the regional police (lots of police cars). One police heli was able to localize one pointer, and "ground troops" were able to arrest the 25-year old man with a laser in his hand. He remained in jail till Wednesday, when he declared that he didn't knew that it was possible to "hit" a pilot and that he didn't intend to harm someone.

Unfortunately, the press focussed too much on the possible jail sentence for these crimes: "10 to 20 years", all press said/wrote. I think that more people will be scared off when they hear "5.000 euro fine", rather than "10 to 20 years in prison". Anyway: fact is that many Johnny's now know that there is a real chance that they get arrested, and the fact that the press reported that this laser guy was in jail for one night will scare them off.

Some news reports about last Tuesday's operation:

http://nieuws.vtm.be/binnenland/61597-p ... aar-lasers

http://www.hbvl.be/krantenkoppen/zoeken ... g=laserpen
Today, the regional court in Tongeren (Correctionele Rechtbank) has sentenced the guy who was arrested in September 2013 with a laserpen in his hands to 46 hours of community services (plus legal costs).

It's the first time someone is convicted in Belgium for using a laserpen against aircraft/heli's, the newspaper Het Belang Van Limburg writes.

Source:
http://www.hbvl.be/limburg/maasmechelen ... straf.aspx
(please note: the photo in this article is the culpable's lawyer...)

Passenger
Posts: 7278
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Hazardous effect of laser pens

Post by Passenger »

On Saturday evening (08/11/2014), the local police of Antwerp organized another of their so called anti-crime pop-up controls. For that, teams on the ground are assisted by a police helicopter.

At 19h15, the pilot of the helicopter reported that he had been obstructed by a laser pen. The heli crew was able to tell the exact location (Terloplein, Borgerhout), and ground teams were able to arrest a guy there with a laserpen in his pocket.

The "suspect" told the police he was unware that laserpens could harm pilots.

Source : local newspaper Gazet Van Antwerpen:
http://www.gva.be/cnt/dmf20141109_01366 ... t-opgepakt

User avatar
sn26567
Posts: 40850
Joined: 13 Feb 2003, 00:00
Location: Rosières/Rozieren, Belgium
Contact:

Re: Hazardous effect of laser pens

Post by sn26567 »

Passenger wrote:The "suspect" told the police he was unware that laserpens could harm pilots.
And I am unaware that guns can kill people :evil:
André
ex Sabena #26567

Post Reply